Topic: InstructrTrepe's docs and patches

[Jorgur]

Here are some old, but useful docs, by InstructrTrepe.
Algorithms/Stats FAQ
Other docs

InstructrTrepe's patches are uploaded to the patch archive.

[C. V. Reynolds]

 I see you left out InstructrTrepe's Kiss of Blessing patch. I could upload it for your collection, if you would like.

Also, using InstructrTrepe's code, I made a patch that fixes the issue with releasing a monster in battle. I could upload that too.

Unfortunately, all of my InstructrTrepe patches were in fact recreated by me in a hex editor, as I had lost the actual patch files and thus I lost the readmes that came with them. Also, my patches are made for a non-headered game, but I can make header versions as well if you would prefer that.

[Jorgur]

I think I mistook my Kiss of Blessing patch for the Knife param patch. Meaning, I'm actually missing the Knife param patch. I'll fix the zip as soon as i can.

EDIT: Patches zip file fixed. File name for Kiss of Blessing patch is now correct. I don't have the Knife param patch at the moment, but I don't really recommend it anyway. Still, it should be included for completion's sake.
If you or anyone else has the Knife parameters patch, please upload it.

By the way, you don't need to upload the Monster Release patch, seeing as the problem is simple enough to be fixed with the ROM editor.

[Dragoon ZERO]

Original readme files for Kiss of Blessing and Power Drink patches and Fractional M patch + readme

[assassin]

here's the Knife Bug Fix Patch:

http://home.comcast.net/~assassin17/ff5-patches/Ff5_kn.zip

as noted in another thread, it's superseded by the Fractional M Patch, and the two should not be used together.

Djibriel bungled the Readme uploading, so the Readme files for this and the !Observe patch have probably never seen the light of day.  one approach is to copy+paste the appropriate subsections from Section 12 of InstructrTrepe's Algorithms FAQ:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588331-final-fantasy-v/faqs/30040

and bundle those with the patches.  or we could try emailing the guy and see if he has the Readmes, but a response is unlikely given he seems to have disappeared.

[Jorgur]

Great contribution from both of you!
I do not really recommend these patches because the Fractional M patch breaks certain routines and the Knife Parameter patch affects game balance. Still, it is nice to have them here for the sake of completion, especially with original readme files. 

[assassin]

I do not really recommend these patches because the Fractional M patch breaks certain routines and the Knife Parameter patch affects game balance.

isn't that the point of the patch -- to rebalance the game by no longer arbitrarily ignoring the top byte of (Level * Agility)?  i know nothing about FF5, but based off the bug description, it's hard to believe the designers would only want to look at the LSB.  that'd be essentially putting a luck-based calculation on entire classes of weapons, behaving like FF6's Ogre Nix or L.? Pearl, which only look at the last digits of HP and GP.  too gimmicky, as it kind of turns the Agility stat into a dice roll rather than something you'd intuitively want to boost.

if the Fractional M patch breaks other stuff and the standalone Knife Patch is too strong, what about using the "alternate but more complicated fix" detailed in Section 12.1 of the Algorithms FAQ -- essentially, just the Knife Bug Fix portion of the Fractional M patch?

[Jorgur]

The Knife Parameter patch actually does more than remove the arbitrary bonus to M. It will effectively double the damage done by Knives, Bows, Whips and some other weapons.

The original damage formula for knifes is as follows:
M = (Str * Level) / 128 + (Random small bonus) + 2

There are 2 versions of the Knife Parameter patch. The first one changes the formula to this:
M = (Str * Level) / 128 + (Agl * Level) / 128 + 2

Notice how M ends up about twice as big as before, resulting in twice the damage output for all Agility based weapons. I have actually done a playthrough while using this patch. It was apparent, especially in the latter stages, that Knife based weapons were much more powerful than the ones based on Strength.

He then made a second patch to "even out the balance" towards other weapons:

If Agility > Strength, M = (Strength*Level)/256 + (Agility*Level)/128 + 2
Otherwise, M = (Strength*Level)/128 + (Agility*Level)/256 + 2

This "alternate, but more complicated fix" increases the damage output by around 50%. The one uploaded in this topic seems to be of this variant. The same goes for the fix included in the Fractional M patch.

If you want to simply remove the arbitrary bonus to M, you can find my Knife fix patch here.

[assassin]

ah, i guess people have differing ideas of what part of the original game was arbitrary. :/

InstructrTrepe thought it was arbitrary to ignore the top byte of (Level * Agility) while using the bottom byte.
You think it's arbitrary to be factoring in Agility at all.

looking at the other formulas in the Algorithms FAQ, i see what you're saying about the patch making Knives/etc very powerful.

in Section 6.4 of the guide, there are other weapon/attack types listed separately from Knives that also have "(Level*Agility)/128" as part of M: Bells, Throw command, and Chicken Knife.  if these indeed have their parameters coded separately and aren't invoking the Knives Damage Parameter code, i wonder how their code looks: does it use both bytes of (Level * Agility), or just the bottom one?  if there's a pattern among these 3 types, they could be instructive of how Knives were intended to work.

[Jorgur]

Yes, this is exactly the reason why the Chicken Knife is much more powerful than the Brave Blade. I don't know if this was really intended; rather than use an average of Strength and Agility, both stats contribute equally in the M calculation. The same thing applies to Bells and Throw. The former is hard to notice because their Attack Power is reduced to 50-100% in damage calculations.

My guess is that Knives were intended to use an average of Strength and Agility. They probably slipped quite a bit by making the formula fully use both stats and then messing up the calculation procedure, basically using just one of them. This, in turn, gave the illusion that the Knife parameters were balanced towards the rest. Being satisfied with the formula, they applied similar ones to the Chicken Knife, Throw and Bells parameters.

A possible solution is to apply this formula to Knives:
M = (Level*Strength)/256 + (Level*Agility)/256 + 2

But then another question arises: What about the Chicken Knife? If its formula is to be changed as well, the Chicken Knife would be half as powerful as usual. Then there are the Bells and Throw, which also use similar calculations without the lower byte bug.

My approach is this issue is to simply leave it alone. Knives do roughly the same damage as other weapons. Throw is extra powerful (I have no problem with that) and Bells have a somewhat strange calculation (but they are not particularly powerful). I can live with these things, rather than making a patch that would distort game balance.

[assassin]

A possible solution is to apply this formula to Knives:
M = (Level*Strength)/256 + (Level*Agility)/256 + 2

i like that.  it basically behaves like Swords, but replaces one half of Strength with one half of Agility.

are the Strength, Agility, and Magic Power stats generally in the same range?  i realize they can vary by character/job, but i'm just trying to get an idea if they're in the same ballpark for when i compare these formulas, as i'm clueless about FF5.

[Jorgur]

Yes, they are roughly the same. Strength and Magic are a bit higher than Agility, but the difference is fairly minor.

[assassin]

some interesting background discussion on these patches:

http://home.comcast.net/~assassin17/ff5-knives-whips-bows-damage-bug.zip

it's fortuitous that i was reading and archiving discussions on the GameFAQs FF5 board in 2004, given i didn't (and don't) even play the damn game. :P

yes, these blasts from the past make my toes tingle.

[Jorgur]

Another great contribution! These posts interestingly reveal the story behind the Knives' Parameters patch. I took out some of the more relevant replies.

The topic begins with InstructrTrepe discussing the bug and the earliest solution.

From: instructrtrepe | Posted: 5/14/2004 4:14:06 AM | Message Detail
Ever wonder why the Thief has such pathetic physical damage in combat?

[...]

I had always found it odd that only the first byte of Agility mattered in getting a +1 bonus to M. Thus, someone with 4 Agility would get +1 to M, but someone with 96 Agility would not. I believe the above formula is the result of mistake in the code. Given its layout, I believe the intention was for the formula to be :

M = (Strength*Level)/128 + (Agility*Level)/128 + 2

[...]

Would the "correct" formula mess up game balance?
Possibly. Ninjas in the early - mid game could arguably become too powerful. The Hunter would also get a nice boost, possibly too much. Dancers with Sword Dance could also be ridiculously good boss killer. However, consider:

a) If the enemies have a low to mid degree of Defense, Swords, Katanas and Axes (and therefore Knights, Samurais and Berserkers) will still be your best fighters. If the enemy has high Defense, even the Ninja will look weak.

b) Swords, Katanas and Axes can benefit very early in the game with Double Grip. Knives would need 2-handed, which would come far later and Bows and Whips cannot benefit from either.

c) Finally, I think the "correct" formula would give you even more options in terms of party configurations. Now, if you want a strong physical attacker, you have a lot more choices: Thief with Brawl, but give him a Knife anyway, Mediator, Hunter, Dancer can all be viable options.

A user named "usernamehere" notices the unusually high power of the weapons in question.

From: Alex Jackson | Posted: 5/15/2004 11:32:21 PM | Message Detail
Hey instructrtrepe, how difficult would it be to rewrite the damage algorithms to allow M to be a fraction?

One thing that always bugged me in FF5 (once I actually started figuring out and paying attention to what things affected how much damage you do) was that equipment that adds a few points to Strength or Magic is almost always worthless, because the points usually aren't enough to bump M up to the next whole number...

Instructrtrepe posts details on the fractional M system concept, and initiates some discussion around it.

From: instructrtrepe | Posted: 5/19/2004 1:01:05 AM | Message Detail
Does anyone think the Knife Fix makes them too powerful? Does anyone think a more appropriate damage formula for knives would be:

(((Strength+Agility)/2)*Level)/128 + 2

I'm in the middle of trying to make the "Fractional M" patch, and I think I could probably pull the above off in the meantime.

I'd of course leave the Chicken Knife alone, it being a unique weapon and all.

Silktail suggests a more "complicated" fix. They discuss for a while and InstructrTrepe finally decides on the solution currently available in this topic.

[Djibriel]

M = (Level*Strength)/256 + (Level*Agility)/256 + 2

This feels like the most elegant fix.

Bells (only two of them, the Diamond Bell and Tinklebell) that follow a similair formula M = (Level*Magic)/128 + (Level*Agility)/128 + 2 are gimped by the fact they have crappy Battle Power and then only use 50% and 100% of that Battle Power, so Bells still come out as weak back-up weapons for a Job that's basically a vehicle for a single action ability.

Throw expands resources, and thus it's quite okay to deal the damage that it does. It does not deal unreasonable amounts of damage IMO; Shuriken, for instance, still don't deal as much damage as a Two-Handed Death Sickle Berserker while beating the MP-driven 1000 Needles. That seems about fair.

The Chicken Knife is the most difficult nut to crack. As it stands, the player is punished for his or her courageous no-run playthrough by what's generally considered the weaker of two weapons. The Brave Blade is compatible with Two-Handed and Goblin Punch, but doesn't deal the raw amount of damage the Chicken Knife produces. All other Knives in the game are basically back-up weapons. While most Jobs can equip them, they're usually inferior to other weapons unless they serve a specific secondary purpose (Thief Knife, Air Knife, Main Gauche come to mind). While a single exception is perfectly viable, the sheer force of the Chicken Knife is exactly that: an exception to the rule. It would seem more fitting to have the Brave Blade the superior weapon as a reward, so I feel the Chicken Knife should fall under the same M formula all other Knives do.

But that's sketchy, since Chicken Knife already has a perfectly decent formula... it just produces questionable output when the other Knives/Whips/Bows formulae are considered.