Author Topic: Too many in-Battle Loopholes  (Read 2021 times)

Lenophis

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Re: Too many in-Battle Loopholes
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2017, 09:45:27 AM »
Excuse me, but do you mean too hard for the player or the maker?
Wow, that was a slip of the tongue. In this case, both.

The bigger problem would be places where the same code checks both monster HP and player HP.  You'd need special code to handle those cases.
I don't know if FF5 made it easy, but in FF6 it was made to be very easy. It uses indexing for stats, and all we had to do was check to see if our index was at least 8. If it was, we knew it was a monster and could check the third byte and do the special checks. Unfortunately, the checks are everywhere cause FF6 is a mess. I am merely speculating if FF5 would be easier to do this with, since FF5 is just a less-sophisticated version of FF6, engine-wise.

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Praetarius5018

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Re: Too many in-Battle Loopholes
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2017, 11:20:22 AM »
Regardless current battle engine is good enough. With a little bit of creativeness and maybe few tweaks in the design you can produce an interesting boss battle like Enuo.
Could you please elaborate what makes Enuo interesting to you?
I just see the average pile of high states with immunity to everything "because boss" that spams highest level spells - a type which I'm admittedly tired of seeing.
Please tell me there's an angle I just didn't see on him.


Excuse me, but do you mean too hard for the player or the maker?
Wow, that was a slip of the tongue. In this case, both.
maker - if already done my proposed change, does that count?

player - depends on how well the numbers are set, but that applies to every numerical change


I don't know if FF5 made it easy, but in FF6 it was made to be very easy. It uses indexing for stats, and all we had to do was check to see if our index was at least 8. If it was, we knew it was a monster and could check the third byte and do the special checks. Unfortunately, the checks are everywhere cause FF6 is a mess. I am merely speculating if FF5 would be easier to do this with, since FF5 is just a less-sophisticated version of FF6, engine-wise.
I don't know if the underlying engine is really that much less sophisticated but it is often a total mess still (or already).
At least the order is consistent, first the 4 player character then up to 8 monster, so index comparison is easy - and also used in a couple places already.

Squall

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Re: Too many in-Battle Loopholes
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2017, 02:52:40 AM »
Could you please elaborate what makes Enuo interesting to you?
I just see the average pile of high states with immunity to everything "because boss" that spams highest level spells - a type which I'm admittedly tired of seeing.
Please tell me there's an angle I just didn't see on him.

Simple - as a player this is one of the 3 battles that I enjoy in the whole game. Every other boss battle was big disappointment for me - too short (except Neo Shinryu). If you check my videos you will see Neo ExDeath, Omega, Shinryu all dead in 30 seconds or less, all dead in a round or 2. Same was with Omega II and I was so pissed off that even didn't bother to record a video of it.
  • Enuo trough a clever design is the only boss with HP > 65k. For a regular player Enuo is 120k boss (see even with the limited engine and a bit of creativity they could overcome their own limitations).
  • Level is 97 - hard for level manipulations.
  • Stats - average for a boss
  • No elemental protection - zero immunity or absorption of any element
  • 2 phase battle with its own specifics
As you may see Enuo is nothing special stat wise/protection, yet everything is so well balanced, the battle is so well designed that regardless what you will throw at him, there is no 1-2 round win.

P.S. The other 2 battles were Skull Eater and Gil Turtle (at low level/HP).

Praetarius5018

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Re: Too many in-Battle Loopholes
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2017, 11:13:28 AM »
hmmm... I think I understand a bit more, ty.


Enuo trough a clever design is the only boss with HP > 65k. For a regular player Enuo is 120k boss (see even with the limited engine and a bit of creativity they could overcome their own limitations).
If THAT counts why not (Neo) X-Death?
tree 49001 HP + Neo 50k, 55k, 55k, 60k
269001 HP

buffs on the party carry over in both cases and debuffs on the boss vanish because he is dead.

As you may see Enuo is nothing special stat wise/protection, yet everything is so well balanced, the battle is so well designed that regardless what you will throw at him, there is no 1-2 round win.
Or on the flipside, it doesn't matter what you throw at him - so the fun of finding a whole in his defenses and formulating a strategy around that is out...
to me that is half the fun in FF5, building a party that can deal with the various bosses' unique weaknesses (not necessarily elemental).

samurai goroh

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Re: Too many in-Battle Loopholes
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2017, 09:24:42 PM »
As you may see Enuo is nothing special stat wise/protection, yet everything is so well balanced, the battle is so well designed that regardless what you will throw at him, there is no 1-2 round win.
Normally not, but not impossible as you can see on the other post :laugh:
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Squall

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Re: Too many in-Battle Loopholes
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2017, 09:32:10 AM »
As you may see Enuo is nothing special stat wise/protection, yet everything is so well balanced, the battle is so well designed that regardless what you will throw at him, there is no 1-2 round win.
Normally not, but not impossible as you can see on the other post :laugh:
Haha yes, but at least its something developed only by few of the most knowledgeable FF5 experts  :laugh:

LightPhoenix

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Re: Too many in-Battle Loopholes
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2017, 06:04:30 PM »
The bigger problem would be places where the same code checks both monster HP and player HP.  You'd need special code to handle those cases.
I don't know if FF5 made it easy, but in FF6 it was made to be very easy. It uses indexing for stats, and all we had to do was check to see if our index was at least 8. If it was, we knew it was a monster and could check the third byte and do the special checks. Unfortunately, the checks are everywhere cause FF6 is a mess. I am merely speculating if FF5 would be easier to do this with, since FF5 is just a less-sophisticated version of FF6, engine-wise.

FF5 is similar; there are checks for HP everywhere (along with the usual shortcuts like comparing the low and high bytes to check for zero/non-zero).

That said, I don't think it would be difficult to do per se with a little experience, just not as straight-forward as it seems at first glance.  You could probably write a short subroutine (and check by index would work for monster/player) and just swap it in.