Author Topic: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6  (Read 4848 times)

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,020
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« on: December 11, 2012, 02:46:53 PM »
any idea what reasoning Square would have in doing this?

i first noticed it in FF6.  generally, Dispel removes statuses which are beneficial, or a mixed bag (i.e. Berserk). but Slow and Stop are decidedly negative statuses (yes, i'm sure there are a few situations where they can help you, but that's getting a bit contrived).

at first, i thought that maybe Square copied Remedy's stats over to Dispel, and forgot to clear what was in Status Byte 3.  but then, i decided to look at the FF5 Algorithms FAQ, and realized that that game removes those statuses as well.  so FF6 was probably making a nod to its predecessor.  the difference between the two is that FF5's Heal does not remove the statuses, in contrast with FF6's Remedy.

why would FF5 have these statuses lifted by Dispel instead of Heal in the first place?  i notice that each spell lifts 10 statuses; maybe Square was going for symmetry, or is there some sort of engine limitation on the quantity?  any theories would be appreciated.

Deathlike2

  • FF4 R&D Master
  • *
  • Posts: 3,538
  • I'm looking at you, bitch!
    • View Profile
Re: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2012, 03:12:34 PM »
The role of Dispel changed throughout the FF series.

FF1 - Dispel removes protection from elementals/status resistance, usually not reliable, but when it works, it works probably too well.
FF2+FF3 NES - No idea
FF4 - Dispel removes a small number of statuses, though probably Berserk status is the most notable. It also removes Sap/HP Leak (no idea exactly why), the various Image based statuses, and Reflect (though, useless because the spell itself is reflectable). In sum, you would never really need to use it since Berserk is usually beneficial (monsters using Berserk is limited to a few). Esuna in FF4A (and PSP) was changed to heal Berserk status...
FF5 - Dispel was pretty much geared for removing any statuses that weren't status afflictions (like Poison or Blind). So, anything that allowed you to glow, or float, or even give multiple images was made for Dispel.
FF6 - Dispel isn't as useful, despite it being very much like FF5 outside of Berserk (which, I didn't notice). I think it has a lot to do with FF6 allowing you to switch characters in mid-battle, whereas this was not available in FF4 or FF5 (FF4PSP does allow for it), which makes being uncontrollable a negative more than a positive.
FF7 - There was Dispel? I don't recall.

Remember that Berserk prior to FF6 was more beneficial (50% more damage is pretty good) when you didn't have total control like you did in FF6. I would say that Berserk status in FF6 isn't so special (did anyone really need it?) and in some reflection in FF4A this was also changed (not for the better IMO)... so take that for what it is worth.

FF4's Dispel is practically useless (it may have changed in the PSP version), so FF5 and FF6 got it right (although, I don't really bother with Dispel in general, especially in FF6 due to permanent statuses on monsters).

Also note that FF5 has a Power Staff, that applies Berserk to its targets (it does no damage). Berserk is a lot more useful in FF5... although I don't usually use it there.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 03:24:56 PM by Deathlike2 »
Working on the next Yet To Be Named FF4 "Hardtype" Hack Download Latest: v1.48

Video Demos: #1 #2 #3

Lenophis

  • Forum Overlord
  • *
  • Posts: 1,685
  • Gender: Male
  • I sad
    • View Profile
    • Slick Productions
Re: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2012, 04:08:15 PM »
FF7 - There was Dispel? I don't recall.
Indeed, it was called Despell. Forgot what it does, though, since I hold circle for victory.

119 bugs fixed and counting.

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,020
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2012, 05:27:26 PM »
thanks for the background.

FF4 - Dispel removes a small number of statuses, though probably Berserk status is the most notable. It also removes Sap/HP Leak (no idea exactly why), the various Image based statuses, and Reflect (though, useless because the spell itself is reflectable).

hah, that last part is dumb.  or is there there some way to temporarily override Reflect via a status like Vanish? i'm unfamiliar with FF4.

Quote
FF5 - Dispel was pretty much geared for removing any statuses that weren't status afflictions (like Poison or Blind). So, anything that allowed you to glow, or float, or even give multiple images was made for Dispel.
FF6 - Dispel isn't as useful, despite it being very much like FF5 outside of Berserk (which, I didn't notice).

Dispel removes Berserk in both of these games (assuming FF5's Algs Guide is correct), so i don't follow you.

Quote
Remember that Berserk prior to FF6 was more beneficial (50% more damage is pretty good) when you didn't have total control like you did in FF6. I would say that Berserk status in FF6 isn't so special (did anyone really need it?)

you could slap it on Gau/Gogo when they're Raging, and get a physical damage boost without sacrificing any more controllability.  same deal with Umaro and his Bone Club strike.  there's also Fanatics' Tower, to get around the Magic-only restriction.  though the L.X0 Magics' Defense ratings are even higher than their Magic Defense, so it's not worth it unless you're using one of the few Defense-ignoring weapons.  anyway, agreed Berserk's not useful for much -- it's more relevant when enemies stick you with it.

Deathlike2

  • FF4 R&D Master
  • *
  • Posts: 3,538
  • I'm looking at you, bitch!
    • View Profile
Re: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2012, 06:47:30 PM »
thanks for the background.

FF4 - Dispel removes a small number of statuses, though probably Berserk status is the most notable. It also removes Sap/HP Leak (no idea exactly why), the various Image based statuses, and Reflect (though, useless because the spell itself is reflectable).

hah, that last part is dumb.  or is there there some way to temporarily override Reflect via a status like Vanish? i'm unfamiliar with FF4.

Nope. It's only to enforce the fact that the Wicked Mask (the pic I chose) cannot be stopped. In its first few turns, it casts Reflect on itself, then Reflect on all the characters. The simple fact that Dispel cannot be used vs a monster with the Boss bit (it is also known as the Heavy bit in FF5 and FF6 IIRC), it's just not useful. The only "Dispel" type of spell of significance is Zeromus's Black Hole... since it ignores Reflect and unset/resets other stuff (like Haste/Slow).

Quote
Quote
FF5 - Dispel was pretty much geared for removing any statuses that weren't status afflictions (like Poison or Blind). So, anything that allowed you to glow, or float, or even give multiple images was made for Dispel.
FF6 - Dispel isn't as useful, despite it being very much like FF5 outside of Berserk (which, I didn't notice).

Dispel removes Berserk in both of these games (assuming FF5's Algs Guide is correct), so i don't follow you.

I'm talking about "glowing states" like Slow, Haste, Reflect, Stop, etc. FF5 was the predecessor to what FF6 did in that. In fact (I forgot to mention), the permanent status feature was added to FF5 first (Reflect status was most notable).

Quote
Quote
Remember that Berserk prior to FF6 was more beneficial (50% more damage is pretty good) when you didn't have total control like you did in FF6. I would say that Berserk status in FF6 isn't so special (did anyone really need it?)

you could slap it on Gau/Gogo when they're Raging, and get a physical damage boost without sacrificing any more controllability.  same deal with Umaro and his Bone Club strike.  there's also Fanatics' Tower, to get around the Magic-only restriction.  though the L.X0 Magics' Defense ratings are even higher than their Magic Defense, so it's not worth it unless you're using one of the few Defense-ignoring weapons.  anyway, agreed Berserk's not useful for much -- it's more relevant when enemies stick you with it.

Those are limited usage scenarios... although it didn't dawn upon those guys to have a Berserk-relic. It was added to CT and it was pretty nifty for regular battles. They probably may have gone away from the auto-Berserk stuff because of FF4's Avenger (although, it probably has to do with the 2-handedness of it and various bugs that stemmed form it).
Working on the next Yet To Be Named FF4 "Hardtype" Hack Download Latest: v1.48

Video Demos: #1 #2 #3

assassin

  • Bane of Retards
  • *
  • Posts: 1,020
  • space bears are not gentle!
    • View Profile
    • My Barren Webpage
Re: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2012, 09:37:04 PM »
- so in FF4, could you remove Reflect from non-bosses by reflecting Dispel off your own party, and hoping it hits the right enemy?  involved, but it could be useful if the enemy doesn't re-apply it for awhile.

- did you see Djibriel's thread where he made an auto-Berserk helmet in FF6 and tried to play through?
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/554041-final-fantasy-iii/64645455

Deathlike2

  • FF4 R&D Master
  • *
  • Posts: 3,538
  • I'm looking at you, bitch!
    • View Profile
Re: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2012, 05:49:39 PM »
Most of the time, Reflect is seldom used... but when it is used, it is in response to a magic attack (Ghost Knights, Baigan's Body). The only other time it is used is as part of the battle script (CPU recasts Reflect when Reflect status is not on itself, Dark Bahamut uses it as part of its battle script to bounce Flare).

FF6 is just as much as a A-button masher like the previous FFs (except, the original FF1 would punish you for over-committing).
Working on the next Yet To Be Named FF4 "Hardtype" Hack Download Latest: v1.48

Video Demos: #1 #2 #3

Djibriel

  • Karlabos
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Gender: Male
  • I am a Zen Buddhist crime fighting machine.
    • View Profile
    • Collapse of Heaven and Earth
Re: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2015, 04:42:34 AM »
 :bump:

(yes, i'm sure there are a few situations where they can help you, but that's getting a bit contrived).

Not at all! It's the best way to stop the Condemned status.

I feel the issue is more the Remedy spell than the Dispel spell.

Remedy item: Lifts Dark, Poison, Imp, Petrify, Mute, Seizure  (Note that Imp is cured with the item but not the spell. )

Remedy spell: Lifts Dark, Poison, Petrify, Mute, Muddled, Seizure, Sleep, Slow, Stop (Cures Muddled, Sleep, Slow, Stop, unlike the item.)

Dispel spell: Lifts Clear, Image, Berserk, Regen, Slow, Haste, Stop, Shell, Safe, Reflect, Life 3, Float

It feels like the Remedy item cures all physical ailments and Dispel the magical ones. It's de-spell, it removes spell-induced effects. FF6 just ran with !Special attacks, making lowly scorpions set Stop and all. Anyway, there is no overlap, and the only statuses they don't cure between them are Muddle and Sleep, both cured by the physical strike instead (also Zombie and KO). The Remedy spell just does whatever. Why doesn't it cure Imp? Why does it cure Slow and Stop? Why cure Muddle, but not Berserk? I'd just make it simulate the Remedy item, possibly curing Muddled and Sleep as well.

Also, what's the point of using Dispel outside of battle? In that situation, it can only remove Clear and Float.

I'd propose a fix, but how do you remedy Remedy? An impossible, self-defeating concept.
The genius who created me only took care of my dashing good looks, my razor sharp wit and my irresistible attraction to the wrong women.

koala_knight

  • Tunnel Armor
  • *
  • Posts: 166
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Dispel removing Slow and Stop in FF5 and FF6
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 01:50:37 PM »
Well it's all in the name. To dispel simply means to remove.
In terms of magic it means to remove a magical effect.
So literally, they could make it capable of removing any status and it would always make sense especially in the context of the other status lifting spells and abilities in the same game as a given version of the spell.
I always took Dispel in FF6 to be for removing positive and time related statuses.